The Winter of Our Discontent - New BHF Editorial by Mark Solomon

[Solly]

oops.

Stop being in the minority.  Nearly all Husker fans think we are headed in the right direction. 

More do than don't, Phil.

Neither of us can prove it, but if you read the boards and the people I talk to, it would seem I'm in the majority, not you. 

Again, I know we can't prove it.  I think your closeness with the coaches/players/boosters is getting in the was of your previously stellar record of objectivity.  Just my opinion of course.

OK, comparing internet boards, and the people you talk to with coaches/players/boosters, and you think MINE is the skewed perspective?

Interesting, and creative "logic", that.

You think Coaches/players/boosters are more than the minority of fans?  Interesting logic indeed.

They are certainly privy to far more facts than would be indicative of widespread disenchantment among the fanbase, Phil. They know when the seat is getting hot, and their perceptions are far more in tune with reality than the feverish offerings of the internet or the synchronous opinions of like-minded detractors airing their various grievances to one another.

[Jarhead Husker]

Thanks for the post, Solly. It was thorough and well thought out. Even if you were off base on a few things, thanks for taking the time to write.

[Solly]

Thanks for the post, Solly. It was thorough and well thought out. Even if you were off base on a few things, thanks for taking the time to write.

Looked pretty good until the INT and subsequent "Hail Mary", then Ameer's fumble.  

[Omaha_Phil]

oops.

Stop being in the minority.  Nearly all Husker fans think we are headed in the right direction. 

More do than don't, Phil.

Neither of us can prove it, but if you read the boards and the people I talk to, it would seem I'm in the majority, not you. 

Again, I know we can't prove it.  I think your closeness with the coaches/players/boosters is getting in the was of your previously stellar record of objectivity.  Just my opinion of course.

OK, comparing internet boards, and the people you talk to with coaches/players/boosters, and you think MINE is the skewed perspective?

Interesting, and creative "logic", that.

You think Coaches/players/boosters are more than the minority of fans?  Interesting logic indeed.

They are certainly privy to far more facts than would be indicative of widespread disenchantment among the fanbase, Phil. They know when the seat is getting hot, and their perceptions are far more in tune with reality than the feverish offerings of the internet or the synchronous opinions of like-minded detractors airing their various grievances to one another.

So close to a complete deflection.

Simple question: Who is the majority in terms of total people, the insiders named above or the fans in general?

You're trying to argue that the coaches know when they are/aren't on the hot seat and therefore, if they say the majority of fans aren't against, then it's true.  Not quite what we were discussing, but again, you have become the master deflector.

To your point: you think the coaches/insders are more in touch with the majority of fans than the majority of fans are with themselves?  Not really sure I follow this.  Maybe your'e saying the insiders are aligned with the majority despite what we constantly read (here and other places) and the hear (the raido).  Again, no way to prove this either way.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the second point.  You can run around beliving that everyone else is in the minority, I'll run around beliving that since most people I talk to (including the vast majority at the Chicago bar I watched the game at) are in the majority.

[schneidsNU]

So close to a complete deflection.

Simple question: Who is the majority in terms of total people, the insiders named above or the fans in general?

You're trying to argue that the coaches know when they are/aren't on the hot seat and therefore, if they say the majority of fans aren't against, then it's true.  Not quite what we were discussing, but again, you have become the master deflector.

To your point: you think the coaches/insders are more in touch with the majority of fans than the majority of fans are with themselves?  Not really sure I follow this.  Maybe your'e saying the insiders are aligned with the majority despite what we constantly read (here and other places) and the hear (the raido).  Again, no way to prove this either way.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the second point.  You can run around beliving that everyone else is in the minority, I'll run around beliving that since most people I talk to (including the vast majority at the Chicago bar I watched the game at) are in the majority.

I help run a pretty successful watch site in the NW Chicago Suburbs (Schaumburg) and I can agree with you here, Phil...  The temperature of that crowd today was "here we go again".  They aren't ready to throw Bo to the side, but things really need to change next year regarding the stupid penalties, loss of focus, throwing in the towel, and not competing in a couple games a season for Pelini's leash to keep its slack.

Hope you had fun today in Chicago.  What watch site did you go to?

[Solly]

So close to a complete deflection.

Simple question: Who is the majority in terms of total people, the insiders named above or the fans in general?

You're trying to argue that the coaches know when they are/aren't on the hot seat and therefore, if they say the majority of fans aren't against, then it's true.  Not quite what we were discussing, but again, you have become the master deflector.

To your point: you think the coaches/insders are more in touch with the majority of fans than the majority of fans are with themselves?  Not really sure I follow this.  Maybe your'e saying the insiders are aligned with the majority despite what we constantly read (here and other places) and the hear (the raido).  Again, no way to prove this either way.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the second point.  You can run around beliving that everyone else is in the minority, I'll run around beliving that since most people I talk to (including the vast majority at the Chicago bar I watched the game at) are in the majority.

Phil, you do NOT interact with "the majority of fans", (A Chicago bar is really an integral part of your metric?), so please drop that ludicrous tack. You aren't this dense or obtuse, but since you either missed the point entirely, or are misrepresenting it purposely, let me clarify it for you.

The TINY cross-cut of fans that you, (or most any individual Husker fan), interact with with any frequency, and the loudest barkers on internet chat sites are not nearly as clear an indicator or fan dissatisfaction as changes in donation levels and number of individual donors, or growing numbers of season ticket requests, or direct fan feedback to the Football and AD offices, or the status of the program in the opinions of the AD and Chancellor, or the feedback of Alumni Association members across the country, or even the feedback the collective Admins and Mods of this site receive on a daily basis.

When there is a mass movement among Husker fans for Pelini's ouster, when Osborne or Perlman express "no confidence" in him, when the large-scale donors refuse to donate to a Bo-led program, when the number of us regular donors drops, rather than rises with Pelini at the helm, (all of which happened under his predecessor), then I would lend credence to your proposition that the majority of Husker fans are so vehemently dissatisfied with Pelini as Head Coach, with Pelini's staff, or with the direction of the program.

Until then, I will continue to believe what the data at hand indicates: that yours is a minority opinion among the entire body of Huskerfandom.

Yes, we're all disappointed. Yes, we'd all like to have seen more in 2011.

But not very many are quite ready to jump off the bandwagon and take up the pitchfork and torches as you seem determined to convince any who will listen.

It doesn't make a person a "bad fan" to believe otherwise, but neither does it make them correct in their assessments of the overall disposition of the entire fanbase.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you, Phil. I wish more were willing to do just that, and focus on things we all agree upon - like the hope that the Husker program will improve continuously, and regain its former "Elite" status for the long haul.

If you were here, I'd shake your hand on that, and buy the first round.

[AZ Husker]

So close to a complete deflection.

Simple question: Who is the majority in terms of total people, the insiders named above or the fans in general?

You're trying to argue that the coaches know when they are/aren't on the hot seat and therefore, if they say the majority of fans aren't against, then it's true.  Not quite what we were discussing, but again, you have become the master deflector.

To your point: you think the coaches/insders are more in touch with the majority of fans than the majority of fans are with themselves?  Not really sure I follow this.  Maybe your'e saying the insiders are aligned with the majority despite what we constantly read (here and other places) and the hear (the raido).  Again, no way to prove this either way.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the second point.  You can run around beliving that everyone else is in the minority, I'll run around beliving that since most people I talk to (including the vast majority at the Chicago bar I watched the game at) are in the majority.

Phil, you do NOT interact with "the majority of fans", (A Chicago bar is really an integral part of your metric?), so please drop that ludicrous tack. You aren't this dense or obtuse, but since you either missed the point entirely, or are misrepresenting it purposely, let me clarify it for you.

The TINY cross-cut of fans that you, (or most any individual Husker fan), interact with with any frequency, and the loudest barkers on internet chat sites are not nearly as clear an indicator or fan dissatisfaction as changes in donation levels and number of individual donors, or growing numbers of season ticket requests, or direct fan feedback to the Football and AD offices, or the status of the program in the opinions of the AD and Chancellor, or the feedback of Alumni Association members across the country, or even the feedback the collective Admins and Mods of this site receive on a daily basis.

When there is a mass movement among Husker fans for Pelini's ouster, when Osborne or Perlman express "no confidence" in him, when the large-scale donors refuse to donate to a Bo-led program, when the number of us regular donors drops, rather than rises with Pelini at the helm, (all of which happened under his predecessor), then I would lend credence to your proposition that the majority of Husker fans are so vehemently dissatisfied with Pelini as Head Coach, with Pelini's staff, or with the direction of the program.

Until then, I will continue to believe what the data at hand indicates: that yours is a minority opinion among the entire body of Huskerfandom.

Yes, we're all disappointed. Yes, we'd all like to have seen more in 2011.

But not very many are quite ready to jump off the bandwagon and take up the pitchfork and torches as you seem determined to convince any who will listen.

It doesn't make a person a "bad fan" to believe otherwise, but neither does it make them correct in their assessments of the overall disposition of the entire fanbase.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you, Phil. I wish more were willing to do just that, and focus on things we all agree upon - like the hope that the Husker program will improve continuously, and regain its former "Elite" status for the long haul.

If you were here, I'd shake your hand on that, and buy the first round.

Neither one of you can prove to anyone your point of what the majority of fans think - short of hiring some firm like Gallup to poll random fans.

There is no "data at hand" as you indicate, Solly. If there is data at hand then show us the statistics. We all know TO will never fire Pelini and that's well and fine but there clearly are indications that point to chinks in the armor. The program has stagnated after a quick turnaround from the Callahan era.

[Solly]

I already recounted several of the metrics I take into consideration, AZ, and how they have in the past been very accurate indicators.

Perhaps you could recount these "indications" that you claim are so "clearly" perceived.

[schneidsNU]

Phil, you do NOT interact with "the majority of fans", (A Chicago bar is really an integral part of your metric?), so please drop that ludicrous tack. You aren't this dense or obtuse, but since you either missed the point entirely, or are misrepresenting it purposely, let me clarify it for you.

The TINY cross-cut of fans that you, (or most any individual Husker fan), interact with with any frequency, and the loudest barkers on internet chat sites are not nearly as clear an indicator or fan dissatisfaction as changes in donation levels and number of individual donors, or growing numbers of season ticket requests, or direct fan feedback to the Football and AD offices, or the status of the program in the opinions of the AD and Chancellor, or the feedback of Alumni Association members across the country, or even the feedback the collective Admins and Mods of this site receive on a daily basis.

When there is a mass movement among Husker fans for Pelini's ouster, when Osborne or Perlman express "no confidence" in him, when the large-scale donors refuse to donate to a Bo-led program, when the number of us regular donors drops, rather than rises with Pelini at the helm, (all of which happened under his predecessor), then I would lend credence to your proposition that the majority of Husker fans are so vehemently dissatisfied with Pelini as Head Coach, with Pelini's staff, or with the direction of the program.

Until then, I will continue to believe what the data at hand indicates: that yours is a minority opinion among the entire body of Huskerfandom.

Yes, we're all disappointed. Yes, we'd all like to have seen more in 2011.

But not very many are quite ready to jump off the bandwagon and take up the pitchfork and torches as you seem determined to convince any who will listen.

It doesn't make a person a "bad fan" to believe otherwise, but neither does it make them correct in their assessments of the overall disposition of the entire fanbase.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you, Phil. I wish more were willing to do just that, and focus on things we all agree upon - like the hope that the Husker program will improve continuously, and regain its former "Elite" status for the long haul.

If you were here, I'd shake your hand on that, and buy the first round.

I don't think anyone is saying Pelini is comparable to Callahan.  So comparing what is happening to Pelini's program regarding donors and front office complaints to what happened under Callahan's is a big strawman.

However, we do seem to be back to the Solich era.  He was operating on TO's recruits and now Pelini is out of Callahan's recruits.

Also, I don't get the mentality of admins / sunshine pumpers on this site to take someone's argument and run it all the way to the hyperbolic end when a response is drawn up.  I don't think Phil was saying that ALL of husker fandom want's Pelini's Ouster.  And I'll ignore the dig at the "Chicago Bar" as a data point (assuming you've never been to a downtown watch site here).  But I don't think it is ridiculous to say that a large number of Husker fans are concerned with the program stagnating under Bo and things not improving in year 4, in fact some things have stayed the exact same or even regressed since he arrived.  If 99.9% of Husker fans that you interact with have that concern, why wouldn't you be correct to extrapolate some of that to the rest of the fanbase?   

And dismissing the ideas as if they are a "small minority" is being blind to that truth.  Unless you are really talking about people that really want Bo fired right now, but that, again, doesn't seem to be what most "detractrors" on this site are saying...  I'm still a BOliever, but I am concerned that until he gets over himself and fixes his attitudes, this program will be stagnant for years to come.  And that, I think, is a pretty common thought among a majority of the fanbase (most likely non-donors though).

[AZ Husker]

I already recounted several of the metrics I take into consideration, AZ, and how they have in the past been very accurate indicators.

Perhaps you could recount these "indications" that you claim are so "clearly" perceived.

There's really no reason for me to recount the indications in this thread. They've been well hammered home on this board more times than I can count.

One fact that is undeniable is the wins and losses record. Pelini has proven his ability to immediately turn a program around, plop it up on a plateau and leave it there.

[Solly]

I don't think anyone is saying Pelini is comparable to Callahan.  So comparing what is happening to Pelini's program regarding donors and front office complaints to what happened under Callahan's is a big strawman.

However, we do seem to be back to the Solich era.  He was operating on TO's recruits and now Pelini is out of Callahan's recruits.

Also, I don't get the mentality of admins / sunshine pumpers on this site to take someone's argument and run it all the way to the hyperbolic end when a response is drawn up.  I don't think Phil was saying that ALL of husker fandom want's Pelini's Ouster.  And I'll ignore the dig at the "Chicago Bar" as a data point (assuming you've never been to a downtown watch site here).  But I don't think it is ridiculous to say that a large number of Husker fans are concerned with the program stagnating under Bo and things not improving in year 4, in fact some things have stayed the exact same or even regressed since he arrived.  If 99.9% of Husker fans that you interact with have that concern, why wouldn't you be correct to extrapolate some of that to the rest of the fanbase?  

And dismissing the ideas as if they are a "small minority" is being blind to that truth.  Unless you are really talking about people that really want Bo fired right now, but that, again, doesn't seem to be what most "detractrors" on this site are saying...  I'm still a BOliever, but I am concerned that until he gets over himself and fixes his attitudes, this program will be stagnant for years to come.  And that, I think, is a pretty common thought among a majority of the fanbase (most likely non-donors though).

Well, Schneids, My only reference to Callahan was to cite the clear indicators that the program was in trouble under his regime, which are not in place at the present time under Pelini. Your claiming otherwise is the only strawman present, but flog away at it, if it helps.

Calls for Pelini's ouster was only one of the indicators I cited. Nowhere did I accuse Phil of calling for it. And I don't disagree that many fans are concerned with the state of the program, but I don't think that "many" constitutes a "majority", or that the level of concern over "stagnation" or of any other particular aspect of the program is uniform, or concentrated toward the more negative end of the spectrum in terms of the program's status, progress, or prospects.

I've headed two separate NU Alumni Chapters, arranging events for hundreds of fans for over 12 years, and chairing NUAA Member committees that coordinated events involving thousands, so I do understand how the prevalent attitude of a small, isolated clutch of fans can lead one to believe theirs is an indication of a majority opinion, as well as how facile that notion is in the face of the entire breadth of the larger body, even if 99.9% of your subset agree on some aspect. Even when all factors are held constant, (which is simply not the case in gauging fan dissatisfaction), extrapolation is only reliable to a decreasing degree as the estimate is applied to increasingly larger body.

You simply don't interact with a large enough sample of the entire fanbase to credibly make any such claim that so vast a majority is so mired in so profound a discontent. The factors I cited would at least serve as indicators (leading or trailing) that such discontent was fomenting, as they did under Solich, as they did under Callahan. At present, they point to no such widespread consensus.

Nice dig at donors, though.

[Solly]

I already recounted several of the metrics I take into consideration, AZ, and how they have in the past been very accurate indicators.

Perhaps you could recount these "indications" that you claim are so "clearly" perceived.

There's really no reason for me to recount the indications in this thread. They've been well hammered home on this board more times than I can count.

One fact that is undeniable is the wins and losses record. Pelini has proven his ability to immediately turn a program around, plop it up on a plateau and leave it there.

And four years removed from a 5-7 season is the bright line where the die is irrevocably cast, huh?

[schneidsNU]

I don't think anyone is saying Pelini is comparable to Callahan.  So comparing what is happening to Pelini's program regarding donors and front office complaints to what happened under Callahan's is a big strawman.

However, we do seem to be back to the Solich era.  He was operating on TO's recruits and now Pelini is out of Callahan's recruits.

Also, I don't get the mentality of admins / sunshine pumpers on this site to take someone's argument and run it all the way to the hyperbolic end when a response is drawn up.  I don't think Phil was saying that ALL of husker fandom want's Pelini's Ouster.  And I'll ignore the dig at the "Chicago Bar" as a data point (assuming you've never been to a downtown watch site here).  But I don't think it is ridiculous to say that a large number of Husker fans are concerned with the program stagnating under Bo and things not improving in year 4, in fact some things have stayed the exact same or even regressed since he arrived.  If 99.9% of Husker fans that you interact with have that concern, why wouldn't you be correct to extrapolate some of that to the rest of the fanbase?  

And dismissing the ideas as if they are a "small minority" is being blind to that truth.  Unless you are really talking about people that really want Bo fired right now, but that, again, doesn't seem to be what most "detractrors" on this site are saying...  I'm still a BOliever, but I am concerned that until he gets over himself and fixes his attitudes, this program will be stagnant for years to come.  And that, I think, is a pretty common thought among a majority of the fanbase (most likely non-donors though).

Well, Schneids, My only reference to Callahan was to cite the clear indicators that the program was in trouble under his regime, which are not in place at the present time under Pelini. Your claiming otherwise is the only strawman present, but flog away at it, if it helps.

Calls for Pelini's ouster was only one of the indicators I cited. Nowhere did I accuse Phil of calling for it. And I don't disagree that many fans are concerned with the state of the program, but I don't think that "many" constitutes a "majority", or that the level of concern over "stagnation" or of any other particular aspect of the program is uniform, or concentrated toward the more negative end of the spectrum in terms of the program's status, progress, or prospects.

I've headed two separate NU Alumni Chapters, arranging events for hundreds of fans for over 12 years, and chairing NUAA Member committees that coordinated events involving thousands, so I do understand how the prevalent attitude of a small, isolated clutch of fans can lead one to believe theirs is an indication of a majority opinion, as well as how facile that notion is in the face of the entire breadth of the larger body, even if 99.9% of your subset agree on some aspect. Even when all factors are held constant, (which is simply not the case in gauging fan dissatisfaction), extrapolation is only reliable to a decreasing degree as the estimate is applied to increasingly larger body.

You simply don't interact with a large enough sample of the entire fanbase to credibly make any such claim that so vast a majority is so mired in so profound a discontent. The factors I cited would at least serve as indicators (leading or trailing) that such discontent was fomenting, as they did under Solich, as they did under Callahan. At present, they point to no such widespread consensus.

Nice dig at donors, though.

Roget would be proud.

And I took no such dig at donors as you might have inferred.  The program is not mired in the muck spinning its wheels and kicking the mud back at its history as it was in the Callahan era, so I wouldn't expect donors to stop donating.

And it is true that I don't interact with thousands and hundreds of thousands of husker fans, but the dozens and hundreds that I do interact with share the concern that I have expressed here.  And it seems reasonable to me that donor levels would be a lagging indicator of discontent.  But again, I don't think people are ready to throw Pelini completely out.  But I do think that if next doesn't show some improvement on the stupid penalties, loss of focus, lack of preparation, blown out games, nonsense losses, etc, then the malcontents here may well have been a leading indicator.

Anyways, enough on this, as no one can hope to compete with your wordsmithing, so we can just agree to disagree and look forward to next season.  I really really do hope Pelini is successful, but some of the issues with the little things that should be sewn up by game 13 are getting to be alarming.  The players have been blamed for execution after every game this season to one degree or another.  At some point, lack of execution has to point to lack of preparation which points to possible coaching issues.

Anyways, time to close the book on this season and look forward to next year.  I'm glad to finally be able to welcome NU to Chicago when they play NW.

[AZ Husker]

I already recounted several of the metrics I take into consideration, AZ, and how they have in the past been very accurate indicators.

Perhaps you could recount these "indications" that you claim are so "clearly" perceived.

There's really no reason for me to recount the indications in this thread. They've been well hammered home on this board more times than I can count.

One fact that is undeniable is the wins and losses record. Pelini has proven his ability to immediately turn a program around, plop it up on a plateau and leave it there.

And four years removed from a 5-7 season is the bright line where the die is irrevocably cast, huh?

I believe it is a large enough sampling of time to draw conclusions on. If I were to draw it out on a line graph I believe it would look very similar to a plateau.

[RedEyedFanatic]

I would be amazed if we didn’t see a lot of the “30” formation – or “Diamond” as most call it

So are you amazed?  I can only recall seeing it once.  For it being one of our most productive formations, it boggles the mind that it is used so sparingly.  It almost makes me think Beck has some sort of deal with the devil where the formation will work wonders, but he loses a month of his life every time we run it or something.  It's not exactly like we should be worried about putting it on film at this point in the season.